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	<title>Comments on: Turing Centennial Post 5: Martin Farach-Colton</title>
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	<description>&#34;Marge, I agree with you - in theory. In theory, communism works. In theory.&#34; -- Homer Simpson</description>
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		<title>By: (Belated) Turing Centennial Series from &#8216;in Theory&#8217; blog &#171; kryptomusing</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-7179</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[(Belated) Turing Centennial Series from &#8216;in Theory&#8217; blog &#171; kryptomusing]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 00:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-7179</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Turing Centennial Post 5: Martin Farach-Colton [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Turing Centennial Post 5: Martin Farach-Colton [...]</p>
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		<title>By: EH</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-6577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[EH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 00:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-6577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for the post Martin.   I will echo your experiences that it is difficult to find other LGBT students in CS and related fields.  It is difficult enough to be gay and different from most of society, but then add in a math or science field and it can feel positively isolating. 

I disagree with the statement of gay stereotypes.  There are some gay role models yes, but there are women role models as well,   I don&#039;t think there have been enough of either to shatter the stereotypes associated with being in the field (or being gay or a women), however.  Hopefully someday.

I&#039;ll also add that Rutgers now has two student groups that are designed for helping create a supportive environment for women and LGBT students.   We have Women in Computer Science, and I and several others founded a Rutgers chapter of oSTEM (Out in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) last year.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the post Martin.   I will echo your experiences that it is difficult to find other LGBT students in CS and related fields.  It is difficult enough to be gay and different from most of society, but then add in a math or science field and it can feel positively isolating. </p>
<p>I disagree with the statement of gay stereotypes.  There are some gay role models yes, but there are women role models as well,   I don&#8217;t think there have been enough of either to shatter the stereotypes associated with being in the field (or being gay or a women), however.  Hopefully someday.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll also add that Rutgers now has two student groups that are designed for helping create a supportive environment for women and LGBT students.   We have Women in Computer Science, and I and several others founded a Rutgers chapter of oSTEM (Out in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) last year.</p>
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		<title>By: smewtoo</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-6469</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smewtoo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-6469</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Luca, thanks for this series, I read the posts with great interest. 

Martin, I really liked your post, that transcended the individual stuggles and emphasized the overall, remarkable communal acceptance. Still, I have to say, I have been with you on the sidelines from early 90&#039;s and you faced several homophobic incidents, none minor when they occurred.  You were more courageous and open than most, and in the process, you helped bring out this acceptance. You have triumphed, so the past might not look challenging, but it was challenging nevertheless and I am glad you and your family are here. Now that the theory community (and some of the US Society)  has arrived at this acceptance, you are ahead, fighting the legal and political battles that I hope others embrace. Thanks for constantly providing leadership by example.

-- Metoo]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luca, thanks for this series, I read the posts with great interest. </p>
<p>Martin, I really liked your post, that transcended the individual stuggles and emphasized the overall, remarkable communal acceptance. Still, I have to say, I have been with you on the sidelines from early 90&#8242;s and you faced several homophobic incidents, none minor when they occurred.  You were more courageous and open than most, and in the process, you helped bring out this acceptance. You have triumphed, so the past might not look challenging, but it was challenging nevertheless and I am glad you and your family are here. Now that the theory community (and some of the US Society)  has arrived at this acceptance, you are ahead, fighting the legal and political battles that I hope others embrace. Thanks for constantly providing leadership by example.</p>
<p>&#8211; Metoo</p>
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		<title>By: Turing Centennial Series from In Theory blog &#124; Healthy Algorithms</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-6378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Turing Centennial Series from In Theory blog &#124; Healthy Algorithms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 06:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-6378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Turing Centennial Post 5: Martin Farach-Colton [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Turing Centennial Post 5: Martin Farach-Colton [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rekha</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-6311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rekha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 22:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-6311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I too have had a very positive experience as a queer women in the Rutgers&#039; computer science department.   My orientation has mostly been a non-issue in the systems community.  Though there were occasional remarks about not flaunting my &quot;gayness&quot; to minimize its impact on job prospects.   However, I have had to bear stronger sexist statements (It is easier for you to get a job because you are a women) than homophobic ones. Overall, I had a positive experience at Rutgers as a queer woman with my adviser, fellow grad students and the rest of the community.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too have had a very positive experience as a queer women in the Rutgers&#8217; computer science department.   My orientation has mostly been a non-issue in the systems community.  Though there were occasional remarks about not flaunting my &#8220;gayness&#8221; to minimize its impact on job prospects.   However, I have had to bear stronger sexist statements (It is easier for you to get a job because you are a women) than homophobic ones. Overall, I had a positive experience at Rutgers as a queer woman with my adviser, fellow grad students and the rest of the community.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Farach-Colton</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-6023</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Farach-Colton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2012 23:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-6023</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This article is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156664337/stereotype-threat-why-women-quit-science-jobs]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is relevant to the discussion:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156664337/stereotype-threat-why-women-quit-science-jobs" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156664337/stereotype-threat-why-women-quit-science-jobs</a></p>
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		<title>By: Martin Farach-Colton</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-5988</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Farach-Colton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 20:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-5988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Right, it&#039;s all about stereotypes, and I don&#039;t think that gay men suffer from the same type of stereotyping within the research community that women do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, it&#8217;s all about stereotypes, and I don&#8217;t think that gay men suffer from the same type of stereotyping within the research community that women do.</p>
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		<title>By: Lotte</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-5941</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lotte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 03:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-5941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a woman in theory, I think the biggest difference in terms of how women (and minorities) and other people are treated is that it is *believed* that women (and minorities) receive preferential treatment in admissions and jobs.  There is no such belief with respect to gay men that I am aware of. 

Thus, in the early career stages, you constantly think about yourself that you are here because of an affirmative action measure.  You think that other people think that about you.  And other people do think that about you! 

As I have become more senior, I do not have these thoughts very much any more.  However, as a graduate student, I constantly had these thoughts.  This resulted in self-doubt that lead to unproductive behaviour such as trying to solve problems on my own and not learning to be a productive collaborator.  This was explicitly reinforced by professors who told &quot;weaker&quot; students not to work with &quot;stronger&quot; students lest they become discouraged and/or not contribute sufficiently to work with their name on it.  When I look back on it, I do not think the &quot;weaker&quot; students were weaker.  I think that they missed out on learning more from and building connections to their &quot;stronger&quot; and more confident peers, and given the gender balance of the &quot;weaker&quot; students, this is one example of sexism in graduate school.  

Despite what I write, I am a strong supporter of affirmative action, because only when gender and race do not matter any more, will these thoughts not occur to people and they can do their best work.  Also, ultimately, I do not think I have received more preferential treatment than discrimination.   

Without affirmative action, equally talented women are likely to be overlooked.  However, with affirmative action (and with the false belief that this only promotes less qualified people rather than qualified people who would otherwise be overlooked), from the beginning of their career, women are used to other people assuming that they are less qualified.  This affects you in many ways, many of which are directly related to interactions with other people which are very important in our research community.  Gay people have their own difficult issues to deal with, but I do not think that people treat them as if they are less qualified a priori.
.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a woman in theory, I think the biggest difference in terms of how women (and minorities) and other people are treated is that it is *believed* that women (and minorities) receive preferential treatment in admissions and jobs.  There is no such belief with respect to gay men that I am aware of. </p>
<p>Thus, in the early career stages, you constantly think about yourself that you are here because of an affirmative action measure.  You think that other people think that about you.  And other people do think that about you! </p>
<p>As I have become more senior, I do not have these thoughts very much any more.  However, as a graduate student, I constantly had these thoughts.  This resulted in self-doubt that lead to unproductive behaviour such as trying to solve problems on my own and not learning to be a productive collaborator.  This was explicitly reinforced by professors who told &#8220;weaker&#8221; students not to work with &#8220;stronger&#8221; students lest they become discouraged and/or not contribute sufficiently to work with their name on it.  When I look back on it, I do not think the &#8220;weaker&#8221; students were weaker.  I think that they missed out on learning more from and building connections to their &#8220;stronger&#8221; and more confident peers, and given the gender balance of the &#8220;weaker&#8221; students, this is one example of sexism in graduate school.  </p>
<p>Despite what I write, I am a strong supporter of affirmative action, because only when gender and race do not matter any more, will these thoughts not occur to people and they can do their best work.  Also, ultimately, I do not think I have received more preferential treatment than discrimination.   </p>
<p>Without affirmative action, equally talented women are likely to be overlooked.  However, with affirmative action (and with the false belief that this only promotes less qualified people rather than qualified people who would otherwise be overlooked), from the beginning of their career, women are used to other people assuming that they are less qualified.  This affects you in many ways, many of which are directly related to interactions with other people which are very important in our research community.  Gay people have their own difficult issues to deal with, but I do not think that people treat them as if they are less qualified a priori.<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: luca</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-5924</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[luca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-5924</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a very strange thought, I don&#039;t think that I buy it.

But I was thinking of something else: it seems that professions where there are a lot of women, like flight attendants or nurses, also have a lot of out gay men, and that in professions where you don&#039;t see a lot of women, like engineering or investment banking, you don&#039;t see a lot of out gay men. 

So maybe there is some commonality between factors that discourage women from pursuing certain professions and factors that discourage gay men from being out in those professions (or from pursuing them at all). Or maybe not, and it&#039;s just that gay men are more comfortable being out among straight women than among straight men.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a very strange thought, I don&#8217;t think that I buy it.</p>
<p>But I was thinking of something else: it seems that professions where there are a lot of women, like flight attendants or nurses, also have a lot of out gay men, and that in professions where you don&#8217;t see a lot of women, like engineering or investment banking, you don&#8217;t see a lot of out gay men. </p>
<p>So maybe there is some commonality between factors that discourage women from pursuing certain professions and factors that discourage gay men from being out in those professions (or from pursuing them at all). Or maybe not, and it&#8217;s just that gay men are more comfortable being out among straight women than among straight men.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Farach-Colton</title>
		<link>http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/turing-centennial-post-5-martin-farach-colton/#comment-5903</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Farach-Colton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 02:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lucatrevisan.wordpress.com/?p=2555#comment-5903</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, Luca, for not saying more about the sexism angle.  One woman after another pointed out differences between the way women and gay men are treated.  The one interesting point that one of them made was that things had gone well for me as a gay man because I had a partner.  She said that married women did better in the theory community because guys didn&#039;t hit on them as much.  In the case of a gay man, by having a partner I would seem to be hitting on the straight guys who make up most of the field.  It may be an interesting point, but I don&#039;t really buy it.  Do you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Luca, for not saying more about the sexism angle.  One woman after another pointed out differences between the way women and gay men are treated.  The one interesting point that one of them made was that things had gone well for me as a gay man because I had a partner.  She said that married women did better in the theory community because guys didn&#8217;t hit on them as much.  In the case of a gay man, by having a partner I would seem to be hitting on the straight guys who make up most of the field.  It may be an interesting point, but I don&#8217;t really buy it.  Do you?</p>
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